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Salted Logic
Salted Logic

Episode 1 · 2 years ago

Manufactured Noise with Hip-Hop great, DJ Spooky (aka Paul Miller).

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

A cool convo with Hip-hop artist extraordinaire, DJ Spooky aka. Paul Miller, who had just released an amazing album featuring sounds he recorded in Antarctica of melting ice. The location is a earthy-chic cafe in Soho about a week after the presidential election of 2016. We had been involved in a 3-day pop-up Culture Lab called CTRL+ALT sponsored by the Smithsonianʻs Asian Pacific American Center, and we chose to grab a light breakfast before I retuned to Hawaiʻi. We talked politics, which then moved into his interest in sound recording, music, mathematics, climate change, and ultimately how to accept the complex nature of life.

Greetings, this is Nia, your host for assalted logic, the podcast. Now this particular episode is Old, and when I say old I mean originally this podcast was called and still the waters rise, probably from two thousand and fifteen until two thousand and eighteen, two thousand and nineteen, and then, for a brief stint it was called Brian. That's right. This, this being that you're hearing, is an artist that can't always make up her mind. In any case, everything that I'm doing is now branded under salted logic, and so again, this is an old episode and if you're new to the show, please make sure that you catch up and catch our brand new episodes that began in early two thousand and twenty. Thanks, talk to you soon. But I've always felt that I wanted to make a book out of the experience of contemporary art as applied to environmental issues. So ice is actually one of the most complex forms of math and nature, and a funny way, because it's actually this hexagonal Christellian shape, and you can actually say it's pure geometry. So music and geometry are reflections of one another. If you go back to early Greek philosophy and tuning systems and so on, like when you hear a minor chord or a major chord, there's actually, strangely enough, and in treating enough, a whole system of organist tons to go into that that reflect you know, what ancient Greek mathematicians like hype Chris would involve, the harmony of the world, the harmony of the Universal Allama my Coco. Welcome listeners to another episode, specifically episode twenty of and still the waters rise, which is the long format podcast that seeks to amplify independent thinkers and creative doers. Now, the excerpt you just heard is from this show, if from my conversation with my guest, Paul D Miller, Aka Dj Spooky, Aka that subliminal kid that the the title of this show is manufactured noise, and the conversation that I have with Paul centers around the deep structure of music, politics and climate change. With that said, this show is shorter than most of my conversations, and that's because the window of time that I had to talk with Paul was was very, very short. I'll give you a little bit more on that whole back story, but just to let you know, we really focused in on two of his current projects. One is called the book of Vice and then related to that is the music album called of and water, of water and ice, and so you know, we delve, we kind of stick our toe into that pool. That is his entire career year. But most of our conversation is focused on these two particular projects. So before I give you a backstory, which I think is just as interesting as the conversation, I wanted to give two dedications. The first is to my eighty four and sunny team. Eighty four and Sonny is really where. It's my new professional and creative home, my partner's brandy, who's the president of the company, and Lukia, who's the cross cultural consultant. They are so, so awesome. The support that they gave me in New York City, where this interview was conducted, was phenomenal. I don't even know that I really could have kept up the pace that I did in New York if it wasn't for them. And then, in addition to that, I also wanted to dedicate this show to the control alt squad. That's right, HASHTAG CTRL alt. The control allt show is really part of this whole backstory. And the SMITHSONIANS Asia Pacific American Center Staff. That's Kalva, Nafisa,...

Adria, Lawrence and Clara. You guys are amazing human beings. The effort that you put in to bringing us all to New York again, where this interview happened, it was phenomenal. So rock on you guys. You're amazing. I will also want to say this other little show a note that I want to have is that there's more background noise in this particular interview than most, but I think it's fitting. You know that this conversation is is entitled manufactured noise, and it really, I think, what comes down to kind of this duality between sound and silence, between urban and rural or urban and remote, and the choices that we as human beings make as as our environment affects us, and noises a significant part of that environment. I had a really small window to talk to Paul and we had to find a nearby cafe to have this conversation, and so you're going to hear muffled sounds of Silverware clanking and bustling servers and Musach. Again, however, I think it's quite fitting. And then, if you guys have listened to any of my shows. Anyway. You know I'm the gorilla podcaster. I basically open up my laptop and here we go. And if you want to meet me at a beach of farm, you know, a classroom, your house, a ranch, it doesn't really matter. I really go to where my guest is going to feel the most comfortable, or maybe a location that's the most relevant to the conversation. So I think you guys will find that noise is actually kind of fitting. So backstore, here we go. Quick before I send you guys into the full conversation. I was in New York because I had been invited to participate in control alt a culture lab on imagined futures, and this was sponsored by the Smithsonians Asia Pacific American Center, or a pack. It was on the twelve and thirteen of November, two thousand and sixteen in Soho. It was a two day exhibition and a pack was able to bring together about forty different artists, scholars and performers, and we were all presenting various imagined futures and it really was of from people of Color. My particular performance or contribution was called ACA legacy communities, and I had created this whole narrative around and an imaginary international organization, and Ngel, if you will, that was working to help nations relocate people and basically create communities from scratch in the early twenty two century in this era of climate change, and I was focusing on, you know, the importance of values as opposed to infrastructure, that buildings and roads, etc. Those are all super important, but it's really the the social science component, right, the human element, that we need to address how we relate to one another, to ourselves. And so aca really stood for Aina, Kanaka and a Hua, and I had three two dimensional three large works of two dimensional works that really represented this vision. And then DJ Spooky's contribution was his live performance of his music from from the album of water and ice and speaking about this new ebook of the excuse me, the book of Ice. That's what he was talking about, and it was his recent trip to Antarctica and his desire to use sound to, I guess, really raise our awareness of climate change, and so I was really interested to talk to him, as well as the other artists. The pace in New York around this show was so, so fast, I wasn't able...

...to prioritize really interviews with all of the artists. Hopefully I'll have more shows that will record via skype or some other medium, but I was able to grab Paul while I was there. The last little note before I give you a bit more kind of bio like information about Paul is that this show took place the weekend following the US presidential election, and so the feeling in New York was, I almost can't even come up with the words, but to let to basically leave Honolulu while the elect action was still going and then nine hours later to land in New York City and once the election was over, and for basically, imagine being on a plane full of people. Everyone takes out their smartphone, takes it off airplane mode and like within five minutes you could just hear this murmur that began to grow. I would say the majority of the people on the plane, are myself included. You know, had not wanted trump to win, obviously, and so it was any everything from like kind of gasps of complete surprise to almost people being like this isn't real right, like where's Ashton Cutcher? He's going to jump out at any moment. We've all been punked. This is just a joke. And so the whole art exhibition was within this context. And of course, as most of you guys probably know, there were demonstrations in New York and in fact the presidential candidates were in New York. And so hosting this show on imagined futures and again right in the background, you even have no dapple going on. So the people that came to the show and the conversations that I was able to have, and then you'll hear in this conversation with Paul, you almost can't not talk about the presidential election. So it was a very, very interesting back drop both to the reason why I was in New York as well as to this conversation and why we couldn't just stay on point about and just talk about the book of ice or his album of water and ice or climate change. It just the election seeped into everything. A little bit more about Paul because we didn't have time to really go into it in detail. Yes, he's a DJ, but he's really an artist and author and a composer. He teaches, he's an activist, he helps design software, he does all these things at the same time. He lives and works in New York, but he travels the globe, performing and working with his creative partners. His written work has appeared in the villa's voice, the source the art form, Raygun, rap pages, paper magazine. The list goes on. He's had, you know, his work has shown at the Venice biennial for architecture, the witness, the Whitney bienniall the Andy Warhol Museum in Pittsburgh. He's also had other multimedia projects that have focused on kind of these remote places. So one of his projects is now elegies, which focuses on the South Pacific island of Nouru, and it was a project that was looking to capture this remote culture that was beginning to embody both the global economy and environmental collapse. He's also the founder of the Vanu Watt to Pacifica Foundation and he's looking to establish this art center that's carbon negative. It's a retreat that will draw draw artist from around the globe to really look at and explore cultural connections through art. Let's see another I'm just kind of he just had he's done so many things. Oh, I think it's also worth mentioning that there's the DJ spooky DJ mixer APP. It's an APP that's free and open source and it's been...

...downloaded more than fifteen million times and the APP basically gives you the user tools to mix tracks from your own digital music library and and I I'm assuming that this product really came out of Paul, because you know, he his philosophy is to make his own compositions open source, copyright free and Remixable, which we touch upon in our conversation as well. So I'm thinking you guys have enough context to to listen to this conversation and, as always, Mohollow to you guys again for listening. Mahollow to my family and friends who've continued to support me. If you guys want more information about this show or any of the other episodes or just to go ahead and read my blog, please go to how now creativecom. That's h an AU creativecom there's a link for and still the waters rise blog and podcast, and of course you can go to and still the waters risecom. So, without further ado, on to the show. So good morning, Paul. Thank you very much for taking this time to let me interview you. Hey, it's a pleasure. It's an autumn in New York in two thousand and sixteen and it's a warm climate baking day. I know you have a career that really has has spanned decades and you've done lots of different projects, but this morning we're going to focus on book of Ice that you've been working on more recently. But before we do, though, I would at least like with all of my guests, I really ask you know, what has made the Paul Miller that's sitting before me? What's what's put you here in your place? Where's it certain key events, was a certain key people? You know, especially the book of Ice, which will get into is a really interesting layered collaborative project. And so how did you get to this place? Wow? Well, first and foremost, I would say I am the product of a family that was very interested in information. My mom is a history of design, she was an independent entrepreneur and I grew up in a household in washing DC that was very intact black family that was progressive and academic Ori into but also good sense of thinking about human rights and stuff like that. So both political but also progressive and dynamic. Sometimes people can be over, you know, a little bit to shrill or something. My mom was like check it out, this is one style, that's another style. You know. So here we on two thousand and sixteen and you when you ask where, how did I get to be here, I would say I just never really accepted the rules like this is what an artist does, is what a Dj does, this is what a writer does, and there's lots of rules and formulas that people, I think, at least unconsciously, you know, internalized and I guess I've just never I just I find most of the way that most the norms of society, in the norms of career and stuff like that just throwed out the window, and it served me well over the years to be a reverent about the norms of how careers are built. But I also think that I thought long term precisely because my mom owned our own their own business, and I was in an entrepreneurial environment lass a kid well, and so that on top of that, because I can definitely see just a little bit that we've been in her in being able to interact over this recent project that we've done control all that. That definitely is your personality and you're willing to push the boundaries. But within like the hip hop community, did you have to? I guess almost push a little bit harder in terms of being in that particular arena and pushing boundaries, or or do you did it just come naturally and you were kind of able to do what you wanted to do, and the industry did it really push back? Or there's some you know what I'm saying. So one your personalities to push boundaries, but once you found your way were there are certain boundaries just within the kind of the genre that you're known for that you...

...had to push against. Well, at the moment, you know, just as kind of a realism, I don't really have any rules. So literally, it would be very hard to put me in one category another. In fact, I've always felt like the itunes is have enough categories style of music or something that spotify or whatever, you know. So when you say hip hop, I have many friends who are pretty like what I called hip hop police or purists, and I'm not a purist. And then I like electronic music and then I like classical music and I like jazz, I like Dub, I like a lot of international stuff. Let's be clear. I mean most normal music styles are really stone rules. You know, techno is this style, hip hop is that style. Fellow black and everybody gets into this idea of their medium and their genre in their style of making that music, and then they just lock in on that formula, you know, and it's to me at least, that's mega boring. So I've always felt, let's try, you know, say that this is just about expression and creativity. Now I have to play with the rules and then again maybe if I did normal rules space music, where it's like hip hops, for Tempo, ninety BPM, a bit of you know, vocal rap bomb, but that's all good and well. I have friends who do every possible style and I'm respect that. From my style, it's about interdisciplinary and that means why not make a pop out of the sound of ice or make my just return. I got off a flat of long flight to be here. I was in a really remote area of Oregon doing photography that I put in National Geographic just the other day. The photography was based on deforestation and it's powerful stuff, but it's not political urban, you know, and so I was doing photography of these devastated cars. It's pretty powerful when you see it. These are all just kind of burned forest that have been totally wiped out. So you actually just mentioned the sound of ice. That might be a good segue into the book of Ice, which is I mean would you would you say that that is kind of like your current project? I'm sure you're working multiple projects. Put the Lark that it's a component I like to think of. Everything is interconnected. So my main project at the moment is a box set dvd compilation of the history of Africanamerican Cinema, and I produce that with the Library of Congress and with the Muse of Bonder Art and the Film Company called Kino Lover, and it was created with Jacqueline Stewart and Charles Muster, who are too very renowned the film historians. But that's going in like heps and like this kind of music playing in the background, you know, kind of but that one's going all over the world, mainly in libraries, archives, university is. But yeah, then the book of ice is a kind of conceptual art project that let's play this way. I always give the basic premises. I took a studio to an Arctica and went to several of the main ice field and do what I call, you know, portraits in sound or acoustic portraits, and the whole pun here is that remoteness versus the city. What happens if you take someone from a deep urban context and put them in the middle of the most remote places on earth and what kind of changes that happens? You know, geography effects creativity and I think where you're from is going to fluence your voice, your style, your whatever you call creative process. So going to an article was a challenge to myself and I think everyone should channels myselves to do something difficult. Well, you know, that's really and I would that's where I would agree with you. My experience in very remote places has been in the northwestern Hawaign island. So holy is the remost remote archipelago on earth, and then the northwestern wine islands were the most remote three fourths of that particular archipelago, and so it really is like being in the middle...

...of nowhere with ocean everywhere around you, kind of standing on a little at all is probably the best way that I can describe it. But I was there definitely one was for for work, but it was also because there's deep cultural significance, native wine cultural significance, and so for me that was kind of an obvious place to find connection in it in terms of almost the smallness that you feel. It really put into perspective kind of my my who I am human, the human role and my purpose. It definitely inspired me. What were you were talking about this remote chapter. How did you choose Antarctica? Did it choose you? Was a something that came up? Have you always been interested in you know, there's lots of remote places you could go at. Arcticus not maybe the first on most people's list. So how did that get to be the place for you? Um, well, there's a couple of variables that go into anything I do. One is I always think about concept first, not afterwards. So concept for me is fundamental. So I used to have a radio show on college. I used to detail more actively, like parties and stuff, but in the last several years I've been wanting to do stuff about really thinking about the deep structures of what cities are right now and doing that from the viewpoint of sound, because I'm a composer and artist and writer. Three things I always say people like, what do you do? You do all these different things, like no free things. Writer, artist, musician or composed. So when you say going to an article, it was kind of like an imaginary space, because it was one of the few places on earth there was so radically different from I've dated them now, all seven continents, and after being on the other six continents for a while, you know, it's like, you know, let's take a right, and that's where I decided to go down Antarctica as a way of hitting the reset button, kind of challenging just basic premise of what it is to be great about. You'd be surprised. I mean, when you really go away from what you're familiar with, it actually sometimes shows you more who you are and you have a it's a more intense mirror all the time and people, all the places you've engaged, but come home to roost in your mind. I mean you're in the middle of nowhere and it's you and nature and that's it. Right, yeah, right, being able to self reflect truly in a remote environment where the kind of is just you. And is there something? Is there something about cause silence to even though you you're doing work really like with sound and your you've recorded the sound of ice, so there is sound, but it don't listen. It feels like there's a lot to that experience. It also has to do with the appsence of sound. Yeah, I mean, well, New York is one of the noisiest cities on earth and when you think about the way sound effects psychology, it's actually there's a lot of sizes to show that noise disrupts doc pattern. So, for example, where right now we're in a cafe, there's music playing the background, there's the clink of glasses, there is the murmur of voices, all of what you're probably be on this recording. But the interesting because you if your body is and your mind is already processing all those elements and meanwhile in your stuffed work and be creative and do your stuff right, and meanwhile there's sirens, traffic, noise density. That I met the guy who wrote New York City's noise coat. And if you take in decibel meter, you know read are actually go to the places like Time Square, some of the more noisy areas. New York has the same decibel equipment of standing behind a jet engine. You know, it's certain angles. And if you think about just how loud Ne York is, yeah, going to a remote place and just hearing the sound of wind or water or rain, I know that sounds you know for what it's worth. You know, in the s you could make an album with just like rain or ocean sound and that's cool, but I also felt like conceptually, it was like it wasn't escape from noise,...

...but an escape from the manufactured noise. I wanted to go into a different kind of noise, like the sound of literally the Earth, and I'm going to be doing more products about that a little bit over the next several months. It just depends on how this the current batch is about forest and after that I'm going to do something about oceans. So it's a three of four stages like and also I need to get around the deserts, so over the next several years I'll be doing that. Right, awesome pull. So then let's get jump into the book of Ice Specifically, if you talk in a little bit more detail. So we know obviously record it the sounds of ice and Antarchic, but what, conceptually is the book of Ice? Um, okay, when you say a book of Ice, I'm usually have a book is made from Wood and, you know, and pulp and now, of course, digital media files organized told us to go into that. That reflect you know, what ancient Greek mathematicians like Pythagrius would have called the harmony of the world or harmony of the universe. So to me at least, ice is a great metaphor for exploring how to balance some of the ways that we think about math and nature and now human beings always and throophomorphisize that we project ourselves out. You know, if we looked up the sky, you see stars, you name the stars after some gods or the radies. You look at the ocean current, you look at the you know islands, you know whatever you are and move these always. It's a way of making sense of the world. So I think that there's something powerful and beautiful about that, but there's also something irritating the narcissistic, like human beings love to think we're the center of the universe, right, but when you had a landscape like that, you realize you're just a speck in the ice and this vast plains of ice. I'm Intrin for how a Western society has the arrogance. I mean, I don't know. Of course, after this nightmare of waking up with trump, of course, which I think was a deeply flowed election, there was a tremendous amount of voter suppression. And, by the way, Hillary Clinton did win the popular vote, so trump can go to hell. I mean it's it's electoral college, you know, the reason that he's in power and the electoral colls is made for white males that has more property owners back in the day to be able to vote. So so is there a conscious decision in your work, even if maybe people don't realize that it's, I guess, trying to push about, you know, like it might not be a political statement, but you yourself are pushing the boundaries of how people think about things. It is there, you know, a conscious intention that you're also trying to get your audience to expand their minds, not just enjoy your music. Right, I mean I'll I would say to the bulk of humanity. You can put me on a stage facing seven, eight billion people. I would scream from the top of my lungs the world is complicated, it used to it. Yeah, yeah, you know, you can simplify it. It's not going to be like, you know, you walking into a Disney movie film set. Come on, people, you know, think it's all connected. And Yeah, I just I can't believe how human beings always want to simplify and make everything dumb and annoying and stupid. I mean there's probably something in our cultural foundational level where hyper consumerism, the American sensibility of accessibility and everything needs to be made simplified. You know. I mean I could show you a tweet or two from Donald trumb where he's talking about commy changes in the hoax, and I'm like yeah, if you don't, but it in does and believe in it. Like, you know, my mom of these days. I'm like, if you don't believe in gravity, try and jump out that window and see if you really know. Yeah, now far your believe carries you right now. On one hand, if you want to get metaphorical and metaphysical, sure you can, if you're a Buddhist monk and you can say, well, I'm imagining floating through Nirvana, like that's cool, I can give with that. But even a Buddhist monk would have believe in science. So great, you know, great onsins were on...

...a political topic, because there is this component of the book of Ice and going to add Arctica, where it's it's kind of like a well, I want you to describe it a like a you know, a nation for all. The really thing about you know, part of it goes back to the ancient days of when you had farmers versus nomatch, and the idea of specialization comes out of being will create better economies of scale. So if I can make enough food, I can plead to ten people that Pete, those ten people are freed up to do other jobs. Who you are. But we're in an air where there's there's a surpus of people in a way that people's imaginations are being just drenched with whatever an article is. The only blank is based on the map in a way, but it's a place of pure science. So I love the idea that here we are at the peak of humansilization and there's just one place on this planet people just kind of don't get like this eerie, you know, edge of the map. You know, old school medieval times, you'd say here be monsters at the edge of the map and the world just kind of ends. For us, a scientist and artists and creatives who are progressive, seeing in our articles a conversation with nature in a most purest form. So I'm intrigued by that from mini levels. But I'm also respectful of the fact that I can never know at all. There's no way. And when you say an Arctica is a place of unity, I always like to say it's the only place on work with no government. And you really have to understand what government is, which is a it's a compact. It's like we're all going to agree to be in the system, right, or you don't agree, we're going to put that system one. Basically, so if you're in ancient Greece and you're a property owner and you had ten slaves, those ten slaves couldn't vote. The property artist to vote. I mean that's that's what the electoral college is. Yeah, or at least it's a kind of fundamental reflection of that history. So if we go to an Arctic and you put one foot on the ground, every government at everywhere is gone. You're just standing on a piece of ice and it's you and nature and some other scientists. I'm speaking metaphorically, but it's pretty open. I mean you, yeah, if you want to just go and walk into the ice, go for it. I mean, you might not live letter anymore, right, but you're so everyone has to help each other and everyone is it's not a utopian place, it's there is a degree of you have how fragile it is to be human, right, and that means we should all, in the best of all possible world, support one of it. But yeah, yeah, so current. So currently, then the book of place. We talked about almost how it's packaged and you know how how people can get ahold of it and maybe what are some of the ways that you're using this particular project at the moment in terms of, you know, either performance or opening up conversations? Currently, the book of Ice is in a limit edition run and I just recommend everyone to get the e book version because it's really hard to find the physical book, but it's on Amazon and so out every major digital bookstore, and the ebook is more of a graphical time. I love the formatting for the itunes version, for example, and I've tried as much as possible to make the album free and open source and we've had almost a million downloads. So it's been it's been really wide. They distributed on the web, both of which are available and different formats, and I continue those things. Yeah, so when you think about free culture, because an artic is the only place in arch to do government, you make the album copyright open and now that copyright again. It's about creating artificial scarcity. You you create something, but you put a limit on it and people have to buy it, because then they want to engage. Now most...

...musicians are very commercial and they're going to be like burned, their heads a burst in flames, who say all given away stuff for free. And so I always do. I'm very agnostic about capitalism and I personally think that it's highly overrated and I think that people need to come up with different kinds of I'm not against the idea of accumulating capital, but there's different kinds of capital. So there's cultural capital, there's social capital, because I agree. If you know, money is the ability to have a diversified community as a way of bartering. That's not our physical things, right. We just as humanity. We've we've superimpose false value, over rate. A dollar is a dollar. What is that? And I think you know even this idea of more indigenous cultures, you know, and not understanding money. You know, to me, any community, any culture that gets to the point where they need to diversify, whether it's internally there's population size or you begin to integrate with lots of other cultures. Everyone comes up with ways to barter. I just think more more nature based communities didn't understand what others were willing to do for money. Right, you know that that's really the issue. It's like the money is at the root of all evil. It's it's humans, humans ability to actually make money something that it's not and give it false value and use it to, you know, to control and create elector falts, power and salts. It's it's very interesting. Well, okay, let's say what is false. And this is where you get really postmodern. I mean the funny thing about being a musician who also reads a lot. I'm also intrigued with how most people were just like, Oh yeah, when this election people are retweeting or sarrowing also to crazy information. To have a functioning democracy you need an informed populace, right, and people are just I don't know what is on people's mind. So deep. So is there a part of the end of your music in terms of, I guess, wanting to push in and actually help help city be a little bit more selfrecollective? I mean, you gotta remember I'm an artist. So That's whenever people are like, Oh, why don't you jump up on a political box and start, you know, ranting and there you know protesting. I protest and I'm just as much against the system as anyone else. I'm a big Fan of saying, book, you have to focus and not I mean everybody who's protesting. I like my heart goes out to them, but I also feel like I wish all these people. Everybody voted and in so it's large numbers that they cam front. So where do you want the book of Ice to go? Or is it, like you said, is it going to then kind of just some seamlessly roll into, like you're saying, oceans and desert, where you're just going to continue to move into these next realms and then it'll end up being like a compilation. Yeah, okay, I'd like to call it an index of possibilities. HMM, because when they say an index, it's kind of like an emotional index, like super feelings brought out by these environments in rhythm. So for you hear hiphop or attack them, a dumb stup, and you're not I mean people like, Oh, did you bring microphones? Like yeah, about microhunch. Did you record the wind? Yes, to record to whatever. That's been done a lot. Yeah, the nature album, but I wanted to time collecting impressions, so my impression of that landscape, for my impression of that environment, and then distill that to a composition. I mean that's a conceptual frame where I think are. It's more important than ever because we're now in the what I call the creative economy, and so because of that, all these people whose jobs are going into, you know,...

...automation or and or probably going to be. That's it. Within five years you'RE gonna have automated cars, so get goodbye taxi divers. You have automated airport. Goodbye airport staff, probably airplanes. Anything that can be optimized for computers done. And then, on top of that, climate change is going to be hammering all these othern states that are all conservative on I don't I mean Hawaii is probably going to get a lot of flooding and like water level issues, but it seems pretty resilient and the landsking's very high right like well now. And I also think when you, you know, speak of resilience, we've been island communities, you know, we've we've lines have been there for thousands of years, and so I think it's more about adapting our relationship to the not natural environment, and we've been, you know, voyagers and ocean people and we really see the ocean is connecting us. So I think the Pacific of the statement that's from there is that we're probably one of the regions that contribute the least what are on the front lines. It's kind of the Canary in the coal mine, which is one of the reasons why it was just very interesting as I heard you speak about, you know, at Article of the book of Ice, climate change and the future, even though you know whole what he is warm and the you know, tropical, and here's an article with ice. There's this relationship between these two places which to me embodies the relationship that really is between all of us. It's like, at the surface it might be hot and cold, it seems very separate or divergent, but it's not. It's the interconnection very similar. When I asked you, you know, like what do you do, or is the book of Ice Your Main Project, and you're like no, I really see what I do as this whole web and at any one moment I might be focusing on one portion of the web over the other, or a certain project might be, you know, in scope and scale, bigger than some other project, but that you always have this web and that's very much you know, I think, how how we are in the whole glow which just it's very easy to fixate on, you know, the buzz at the moment or likes it a trump, but you to me, it's like that's a symptom of something larger and great. There's the web and we need to start really understanding the web and not the hot spot. I mean it's great, you need to understand how to deal with the hot spine, but you can't really deal with hot spot unless you understand how it got to be through this web right of having it be that way. So so let's put it this way. As a composer, one note is never separate, like if I'm going to pick a song, if I'm going to make a bead or make a track of any kind, you have to think of everything is being connected to the software, the editing tools, the way that you're going to have microphones, the way that you're going to have this, all those combined, and somebody's going to press place and place, you know know, and they just kind of get into it and that's it. But for me at least, the way the next five to ten years is gonna be it since ment. It's got to be about immersed and culture overall, and that's where I think we have the tools to fly back against this right wing madness. Is that artist and creatives and composers and environmental activists, the right wing loss the culture wars, actually think that, even though they they're saying this trump stuff is those are all people who are the edge of anxiety and they're just livings marching over a cliff and away. Sorry to be that bloom, but I do think that they're not thinking clearly about what's going to happen when, know, his economics start raining down on them. And they don't have degrees, they're not going to be able to have access to global economy. They're going to be stranded in trump world and good luck. You know. Damn I mean, I I've never seen so many people. The Republicans are able to get poor and lower middle class whites to vote against their own interest like brilliantly. Republicans have payed masters for they they've like a fiddle man, just like people's heart strings about success and failure. How do you see your work fitting into this new it's a new era of both politics as well as maybe the responsibility of...

...creatives or the environment of creative sure, I mean my motto. These days it's all about the politics of perception, and perception, like anything else, can be edited, spliced, diced and every configure to whatever purposes you need. So when you say how I want to reach people, how to I want to engage people, part of the battle is a one hand, I'm an artist. I don't need to make everything like this is primate. Change is bad, the world is warming and you're going to get hammered. You know I mean. It's more a matter of weaving that message into many other motifs and elements that people can relate to, because people you have to start with where people are right now. On the other hand, I want them to go someplace else from the where they really do like try something else. It's not working, you know, but they you know. But I'm also not a mass like pop kind of person. It's just not my head space. I friends who make pop music tracks and they want to have everysilient girls to run around dancing. That's great and again good, fair enough. I love the selling as girls dancing everything, no problem, but I also want to have a little additional message in their complexity and unrelentingly open, you know, culture where people can free to exchange and they I think that's when make you make better culture. But again, that's from a navant Gard kind of you not cop mainstream. Right. Luckily, life is good. Things are good, but I probably could sell Zilians more records but had some girls dancing, but like some ice or something. Yeah, or like you know, I don't know, it's something like super obvious, but I've never gone for obvious though. Yeah, no, I mean I think, you know, the best stuff does come from having tension and complexity and layers and thinking about it. So so, I know we're kind of on a time frame. So last two questions here wrapping the book of Ice. How do you? How do you how would you like that to continue to play out? And then what if your next big project? And then I'll have my my last question that I asked to all of my interviewees. I would say probably what I want to do is focused on environmental issues as applied to contemporary culture in the art on the other end of the spectrum, I've going to be done a couple party albums because I need to speak to the masses and people. So my next products about Jamaica and I've been going to Kingston, Jamaica, for a while and I'm setting up a project there of electronic music. Needs Dance, all Reagan, but that's a party album and I do have to really draw the station because I want listening albums where you conceptualize, you're thinking about information and all these things, right, and then the party album where you might be just want to get out a break. And Yeah, I could break. Yeah, I like them to take a break, literally a break. Yeah, albums made from break beats. It's kind of funny, Nice. And there you go. I can I can send you links for all that as well. Yeah, that'd be great. And so that my last question, since my podcast is called and still the water's rise, which is very interesting. So I always ask everybody you know what is your favorite water? It could be fresh or salt. I've had lots of interesting answers, but I kind of ask it from the standpoint that you know that the earth is near seventy percent water, as human beings were about the same percentage water, more yeah, and water. It's just throughout cultures in the world, throughout humanity, has really interesting symbolism to it. So I always ask everybody at the very end what is your favorite water? What kind of role has that played in your life? All well as the as the numbers play out and climate change really becomes the wrath of the math, you know that the wrath of it's my favorite spots to go swimming and I'M A, I'm...

...a I'm a long over the many years swimmer is this South Pacific and the outpost of my favorite spot particularly is about to wats. I've been going there for many years. I got I used to go, usually go every December for the last maybe ten years. Wow, very cool. Or knows, eight years now. But basically is a stunningly crystal clear water. You got some of the main islands and there's this remoteness and calmness. Again, they're getting camera because of storms and right water, the waters are rising. Yeah, so you know everywhere that you treasure and that you think is going to be an amazing place that you can go to for you years, it's going to be changing and that's okay, but it's really the plant. My mode of these days. The human arrogance, the sense of humbleness that I always try to think about as a as a foundation for my own work is that, you know, the more you see stability, the more you to embrace change, and that's a challenge to oneself. I guess everybody thinks, so one day I'll get stable and I'm going to be great and everything's going to be, you know, like the musics. You know, it's like a ballad of some sad song, like you know, and it's never going to happen. They've never going to be that one moment where everything is great. There's always something that could be better, right, and that's the challenge that you can I think, at least that's when my music is art celebrates. So I have a lot to learn. I'm always learning and I try as much as possible to say, Hey, I'm a flaw human being. There's no when Hell I would say anybody else should follow my path. But I do feel please holds. I mean just this is a plea for the twenty one century to embrace complexity, because it's going to get deep, it's going to get really heavy. Well, I really appreciate you talking with me this morning and that's been a great conversation and all the best with not only the book of ice but all the rest of your projects. Nice. Thank you and all of us everything we've been talking about. His available free and open source. I do want to encourage you to, if you get a chance, to just check out the websites today speakcom and the links to my open source album of water and ice. So yeah, thank you a jally and exactly. Will make sure that we provide all this information and links on the say. Great, thanks, Bob. Thanks.

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